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The Future of Addiction Recovery: Embracing New Mental Health Challenges with Amity Cooper

Screengrab of Waismann Method podcast hosts: Future of Recovery: Predicting and Preparing for New Challenges in Mental Health

Episode 66: Future of Recovery: Amity Cooper Discusses Mental Health Innovations

Join us for an enlightening episode of the Waismann Method Podcast as we explore the future of mental health and addiction recovery with our esteemed guest, Amity Cooper. This episode delves into the evolving landscape of mental health treatment, highlighting the significant role of innovative technologies such as AI, VR, and wearable tech. Amity Cooper, an entrepreneur with extensive experience in various industries, shares her journey into mental health counseling and her dedication to helping high achievers navigate psychological struggles and addiction recovery.

Throughout the episode, Amity discusses the rapid advancements in mental health technologies and their potential to revolutionize treatment approaches. Our hosts, Dwight Hurst and Clare Waismann, along with David Livingston, bring their unique perspectives to the conversation, emphasizing the importance of meeting clients where they are and adapting treatment to individual needs. The discussion also touches on the balance between in-person and virtual care, as well as the critical role of continuous support in the recovery process.

This episode is essential for anyone interested in the future of mental health and addiction recovery, offering valuable insights into how we can prepare for and embrace new challenges. Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the innovative practices shaping the mental health industry and how they can enhance the recovery journey.

Podcast Episode Summary:

  1. Introduction to Amity Cooper: Amity Cooper, an entrepreneur with extensive experience in various industries, shares her transition to mental health counseling and her passion for helping high achievers, athletes, and professionals overcome psychological struggles, guiding them through their personal journeys and challenges.
  2. Advancements in Mental Health Technology: Discussion on the rapid growth of technologies such as AI, VR, and wearable tech in mental health treatment, and how these tools can revolutionize recovery approaches.
  3. The Importance of Individualized Care: Emphasis on the need to meet clients where they are and adapt treatment to their specific needs, highlighting the balance between in-person and virtual care.
  4. Supporting Continuous Recovery: Insights into how continuous support, community, and flexible treatment options are critical in maintaining momentum and preventing relapse in the recovery journey.
  5. Creative Solutions in Treatment: Exploration of how innovative and practical solutions can address clients’ needs, promoting a comprehensive approach to mental health and addiction recovery.


Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Hello everyone. Welcome back. Glad to have you here on our podcast to answer your questions on addiction, recovery and mental health, my Waismann Method Treatment Center and Rapid detox. My name is Dwight Hurst. I’m a clinical mental health counselor and the co-host for the program. Um, always a joy to be here, not just with you listeners, but with our wonderful group, our wonderful panel that we have, uh, always have put together. So I’ll go around and see who’s here today. Uh, first we’re joined by Clare Waismann, a substance use disorder certified counselor, registered addiction specialist. Uh, Clare is, of course, the creator and founder of the Domus Retreat and the Waismann Method Detox Specialists as well. So, Clare. Hi. How are you?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: How are you? How are you guys?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Good. We’ve got, uh, David Livingston is here in spirit and will join us in actuality, in in a little bit as we’re going through. He is on his way. David is, of course, the clinical lead and therapist for the Waismann Programs and Domus Retreat and is a, uh, basically a long-time and recognized expert in the field of the psychological elements and treatments of addiction. So, um, as always, uh, you know, glad to to have David on our team, um, we’re joined by a wonderful guest today, uh, who is joining us to talk about her expertise. We’re joined by Amity Cooper, who is a she’s an entrepreneur with over 20 years of experience in working in just a variety of businesses, from fashion to gourmet food, manufacturing and now mental health. And, uh, we’re talking about the practice of mental health treatment, addiction recovery, and just, uh, the knowledge that that Amity, uh, brings as she works with all kinds of people, basically athletes, uh, professionals, high achievers and helping to overcome the problems that come up with psychological, uh, struggles as well as addiction. So, Amity, thank you so much for joining us.

Amity Cooper: Well, thank you for having me. I’m really looking forward to our conversation.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: How’d I do introducing you, Amity? Tell us maybe just a little about yourself and and where you come from.

Amity Cooper: Sure.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Show everyone why we’re so thrilled you’re here.

Amity Cooper: Oh, well. Well, um, we have, uh, Dwight and I, I, I love that we are speaking again so soon. Um, I was explaining to him earlier that I’ve been in the business world, actually, for the last 20 years or so, and as Dwight had said, I had sort of come from, from, uh, a manufacturing and product development world and realized, um, around 2015, that my life of producing products and hoofing my wares and selling and being externally driven, what is wasn’t as satisfying as I was looking to make that. And so I decided to do a huge shift, and I turned my attention to getting a second degree in mental health counseling. And I’ve been an active practitioner and coach for the last six years or so, and I love working with individuals who are just trying to, you know, live their best lives. And so it’s been a great industry to be in. And I’m just really excited to talk about all of these new advancements that are coming online for our industry at large.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Yes. Yeah. And that’s one of the things we’re really excited to hear about and talk about. Amity and I discovered right before this that we had talked three days ago or something like that for a different, different podcast application. And so that made me extra excited when I said Amity’s… And that’s a, that’s a I don’t see that name very often. And then I compared last names and then I was like, oh, hang on, I know her. And one of the things that, uh, that makes me actually excited is I know what an expert you are and the expertise that you’re focusing on the development, particularly of the way that, like tech and digital presence can have in treatment and different ways that there are these more innovative practices. And that’s probably a good start for our discussion is the question. And we’re we run by questions here. Uh, here we answer. And so the first question would be how do we integrate new practices, tech, VR, all kinds of things like that to enhance mental health treatment and people’s recovery.

Amity Cooper: Yeah. Um, so one of the things as I was preparing for this conversation is like I was I myself was becoming overwhelmed and inundated with information. Okay. And so imagine for somebody that has that continues to work and explore and be an active user in this field of exploring technologies. Imagine what it’s like for our clients and everyday consumers, who are sort of inundated with options of how we can access these various tools that are coming on line today. And so the mental health industry at large is really going through a radical transformation. There’s a rapid advancement of exponential technologies that have been occurring for the last 15 years or so, and just now probably propelled by the pandemic experience. You know, we are suddenly sort of inundated with all of these options and all of these tools. And so there is a plethora of options available to us both as clinicians and end users and clients and customers. However you want to classify us and, um, it’s crucial. We have the ability to actually provide the resources and the care in ways that we never thought were imaginable before. And we can do that through a variety of ways with the use of AI development. VR, immersive environments and technologies, plus all of this everyday access to wearable technologies. So I’d love to use this as sort of like a jumping off platform to go deeper into how these technologies can be applied to our practices. And, uh, and just everyday use.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: It’s wonderful. I’m, uh, I’m going to let David in real quick. Uh, David is joining us now jumping in. David, welcome. You are sideways, by the way, I am sideways.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: How do I correct that? Uh, there you go. You did it.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: No, I was.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: On right.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Now.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: I was sideways on a call earlier today, and, boy, we we took forever to figure it out. Um, so. So look at that. Uh, welcome. David. Amity, this is David. Hi, David.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Nice to meet you.

Amity Cooper: Nice to meet you. Lovely to be here.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Well, so, David, I’ll catch you up as well. You know, uh, maybe a summary. Two.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Oh.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: I think, uh, David, I think your microphone may be catching all of us there.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Not sure. Is that. Is that better or worse?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Um, let me talk for just a second and see if I hear an echo. And I don’t hear an echo. So yes, that would be better. Awesome. We got all of our tech. Let’s see. Speaking of tech, we’re troubleshooting right now, aren’t we on the call. So we’re just trying to show off for Amity that we’re not totally rubes when it comes to our tech. You know, with all this tech talk. So you’re, uh, Emily was just telling us about how, you know, the use of tools and digital formats and platforms and things is not only something that’s useful, but I like how you mentioned that we have really the obligation to provide the best care we can. So when there are tools that are available and many of which now are designed to help with service delivery, it behooves us to find ways to make ourselves available to our clients that way. I’m getting yeah. Interesting. Uh, and, you know, to loop Clare and David into this, too. What kind of changes have you guys seen over time? Both maybe tech or even societally in the way that, uh, the addiction treatment is, is, uh, put out there?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think. I think for the addiction treatment itself, we’re still hands-on because what we do is medical is, you know, um, it’s, uh, it really needs to be in the presence of the patient. I think, uh, there is a, um. Tremendous amount of zoom nowadays, and I’ll let David talk about that, especially for our patients, because we do treat patients from all over the world. So, uh, technology has made, uh, you know, um, the patient’s approach to, um, aftercare a bit easier, um, because it means there’s more, you know, paths, uh, to be able to see the patient, to hear the patient, and to feel, you know, present at that moment as much as, again, I still believe in, you know, one-on-one in person. Not everybody’s able to do that, uh, especially all the time. So I think it did open, um, you know, uh, the opportunity for people to, you know, get the help they need without, um, you know, um, missing on, uh, responsibilities or other things that, um, in their lives.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: That’s one thing that I know we focus a lot on, um, through Waismann is looking for ways that people can receive treatment without having to, like, risk having to quit their job or something like that that many times. And Amity, this probably ties in you work with a lot of like high achievers and people who probably have a lot going on in their lives. And I think there is a let me put it, the reason I’m going to use the word “mythology” is, is any one-size-fits-all all approach, I think is a is a mythology, so to speak. It’s like everybody’s got to go to a full-blown 90 days this or 120 days this or, or something that like and sometimes people either they can’t really or we could just be honest they they’re not gonna. So how do we adapt to help people who are in those situations? And that’s one thing we seek to do a lot.

Amity Cooper: Yes.

Amity Cooper: Well, I think, um, and I, I’d love to hear, you know, from all of you on your perception of this, but I think in the last, alongside and in parallel to this exponential technology and growth and explosion of research within the mental health care industry, we’re also seeing you. We’re seeing pockets of how there is this huge paradigm shift from disease to this, the seeking, uh, wellness and a holistic embrace of wellness. And what does that mean? And alongside that, we’re also seeing a transition from, um, if you will, like a quantified self-perspective to a fully integrated approach of how we look at our well-being. And so moving from a quantified self to a quantified health view, world view. And um, in regards to working with my particular clients, you know, there’s all these other issues that sort of come up. Each individual’s journey is unique and their own. And so again, in our basic fundamental training, it’s like you meet your client where they’re at. And so you have to be able to be flexible, adaptive, um, and, and consumer clients specific to their needs. And I think that really applies to the whole recovery process and journey that individuals go on. So.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Right?

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Right. Just to that, um, as I’ve said before and I’ll say I’m sure many times again that it’s the client’s needs that drive the treatment. And so if you’re working with someone who has who’s thirsty, you better get him something to drink or he’s hungry, you better get him a meal. If you’re working with someone who is lonely, work with them. Figure out how they can get better connected, and there’s different ways to do it. If they’re very busy, they have a full life. Maybe that aspect of their life is helpful. Technology can help to, um, you know, uh, they don’t have to drive an hour, you know, each way to go see their therapist. And all of a sudden that relieves a burden. And yet they can still get some help that they need. And like, our treatment program is I mean, we’re really set up that way so that, um, one there’s there you can get in and out quickly. Right. So in terms of the, the technology that’s used in treatment, in terms of being able to get someone off an opioid very quickly, I think that we do that better than anybody I know. Um, and, and uh, uh, with more precautions than anyone I know. So then there’s more options. If you need to stay longer, you can stay longer, right? But it’s driven by the person’s life. It’s driven by their needs. Now, you know, obviously in treatment, um, people are suffering because they don’t always recognize what they need or there’s a lot of resistance to it, or there’s problems with being able to, um, activate in some way that allows those needs to be put in place. And, you know, and in a treatment, at least in terms of my job, I think it’s my job to be able to convince them, using their life and their own story as to what it is that’s out of balance. And, um, and if you do so effectively, people will feel grateful.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: And it’s it’s kind of unfortunate in a way, but fortunate that it’s happening in that, uh, if you look at the old medical model and still some of the tendencies in addiction treatment, treating someone as that individual and listening to them is something that’s a bit modern, too, we might say, and really incorporating and blending the psychological health model. Um, a lot of us have been doing it for a long time, but I just mean that there is still a kind of one-size-fits-all all mentality. So even having along with the, uh, focus on individuality, now we’re talking about how that can be delivered. And there’s options for people to have more intensive outpatient if they need it to do a little more or less to have, uh, I don’t know, just different follow-ups. Uh, one thing that’s really interesting is we mentioned the the virtual telehealth options of delivery through services, you know, through kind of like what we’re doing right now. Right? Um, that sometimes there’s, you know, there’s this question of, is it more advantageous to be in person? Is it not? Once again, individuality and what people like, but Amity. Uh, could you maybe tell us a little bit about some of the developments that are coming down the pike there? I know with VR and things, they’re looking to supplement that, right?

Amity Cooper: Yeah, yeah.

Amity Cooper: Of course. Um, so as we can see, I mean, we’re we’ve sort of with four years out from the pandemic and telehealth and virtual accessibility is sort of second nature to us now. But the beauty of this is that it can go so much farther. We can have so much more of a hybrid approach. Not only can we be up close and screen to screen with our with our clients, and we sort of have a familiarity with it, we’re comfortable with it. It’s a format that’s not, um, uh, foreign to us anymore, but we can also utilize that to have constant, um, uh, contact with our clients in a way that is proactive and directive instead of being reactive. So a lot of things that, um, at least that I found just within the, the, um, screen, the video usage is that, you know, I can follow up with a client, I can have a regular schedule, and then I can do follow up and I can provide access to other, uh, coaching and, and homework tools and portals that I, that keeps the movement of therapy, keeps the movement of treatment, uh, in flow. And then if whatever I see in addition that’s needed, it’s in real time, you know, because I’m, I’m having these ongoing conversations with my clients, and, and then I can figure out how what other tools I can utilize to help support their journey. And a lot of times I’ll suggest, well, let me let me give you a intervention and, and I’ll, I’ll say, let’s, let’s get online and let’s do a VR, you know, routine or process or steps. And then I can follow up and I can get all this real time feedback and what’s going on. So it’s really powerful in how you can incorporate these tools. And they’re and they’re relatively affordable. Um.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: That’s the thing is, things come down the pike and become more widely, you know, more widely there. Um, I’m curious about the way that you see addiction treatment. Um, you know, touching some of the people that you work with and, and what is it that meets some people’s needs? As we were saying a minute ago, you work with, you know, we work with a lot of people who. Yeah, they might have their lives feeling out of control in a way, but there’s still the experts of their own lives, and they may be highly effective and healthy in many ways, but they have these issues. What how do you see them approach and how do you recommend that they engage in starting out treatment when it comes to their addictions?

Amity Cooper: Well, my specialty is not addiction. Um, uh, first and foremost, like, um, my, my area of focus is really, um, looking at the person’s journey, uh, and realizing that we all have hiccups. We all have these life fissures that happen and moments of crisis and change is a it’s an opportunity for for growth and discovery. And what I love to do is when that moment arises and somebody is looking for assistance and guidance, I, I act as an ally, a resource, a witness to their process. And I do that through a particular program that I offer called Life Book. And this is a way of essentially of looking across your life of over 12 domains from your health and fitness, through your character development, your spiritual orientation to all of these other factors. Because we’re not just 4 or 5, um, representations, we have a full mosaic of our life experience. And by being able to look at these areas with distance and and observation, we can come to determine like what are our values and, uh, what our strengths are. And then we’re able to sort of write our own new narrative in this process. And ultimately, when going through this life book journey with me, you come away with a life manifesto.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Helping people to clarify and to find and maybe even isolate some of those self-defeating kind of beliefs is that that’s part of it, right?

Amity Cooper: Yes. Being able to identify what your, vision is, what your what you what your strengths are, what your purpose is. You know, you it’s when you figure out what your first principles are in your life, by defining your personal philosophy, things become much clearer to you because you’re setting a course in a direction that isn’t dictated by the addiction, by what other people are saying. You get really clear on who you are and what you stand for, and it just sets your course forward.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think, uh, Dwight, it’s important to, you know, remind people that, again, addiction is such a small part of the individual. You know, it is a condition that they’re suffering from. It is not who they are. It doesn’t have to be, you know, what their lives will turn into. So, um, everything that Amity’s talking about is all the individuals we see. They need the same, you know, resources, the same path, the same support, um, as everybody else. And again, addiction is something that happens. And usually again, as we spoke so many times, it happened because of something that was not treated or something that was not solved. So it’s a consequence more than a condition. Um, so all those things that, uh, people, uh, can do to, uh, be healthier emotionally, um, is what all individuals need, period, regardless of where they are in life, especially in the world today where, you know, uh, people are feeling such anxiety, such, um, you know, the future is so questionable. Um, I think, uh, working on your strengths, um, it’s, uh, primary to anything.

Amity Cooper: I couldn’t agree more.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Yeah, yeah. So. So, um, just to add to that, uh, um. The hardest question I ever asked, uh, people is what do you want? And, um, because the brain and and whether we’re conscious of it or not, we always want something. So addiction tends to be a compensatory problem for that, for answering that. And sometimes there is trauma. And trauma tends to be in one way or another, a disruption in the hierarchy of a person’s life and in the ability to redefine and understand what it is, like you’re saying, who they are, which is actually a, uh, discovery process. You actually don’t choose who you are as much as you discover it, and the ability to discover who you are, and then have that in relationship to a world in which there’s a feeling that who you are will in some way be supported and even rewarded eventually. And you know, and that that hierarchy of, of living and of life gets reestablished in a, in a, you know, in some dimension in which you understand, okay, this is what I want. I’m willing to work for it. I’m willing to suffer existentially for it. I’m willing to balance my life through exercise and all these things to sustain that. Right. And, you know, and then all these tools, like you’re talking about how they come in and you can begin to sort of put together and also you reverse the trauma by reestablishing a sense of who you are and a hierarchy, meaning a hierarchy, meaning moving towards something that you want. Right. So it all sounds good.

Amity Cooper: Yeah. Beautifully said. I couldn’t agree more, I think… How do you feel about this? I mean, I, I really feel like life’s journey is either, you know, you’re propelled forward either from a call or a fall, you know, and something that’s sort of that allows you to put you on that path of self-discovery. Are you answering that call or fall or crisis point? And then it’s this unfolding, this beautiful unfolding of your life, if you’re willing to step on that path.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Right. Well, you know, a thought is not the same as a thought spoken. So it isn’t until we begin to speak that we actually begin to coalesce a sense of ourself. And a lot of what happens in trauma is people stop speaking because there’s no one to hear, there’s nobody’s going to hear it well, and so that feeling of, of an individual’s and who they are beginning to emerge is interrupted. And that’s part of sort of that, that process that. Um, so one of the things that’s great about therapy is just sitting down and talking and, and you can see because one, it, uh, it creates more self-consciousness, just as you know, talking does, especially if you’re talking about painful things, personal things, you know, and on and on. Um, but the ability to bear the self-consciousness actually strengthens us, you know, assuming that it’s done in a way that we want. Right? That reestablishes a sense of a hierarchy. So there’s all these things that therapeutically, you know, um, uh, can, you know, help this process. So, um, just a few thoughts.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: And of course that then gets into some of the, let’s say the, the mid-term or later, uh, stages of treatment. You engage with treatment, maybe you start accepting and looking for, uh, some help with an addiction process. If we go through a lot of of course, our clients are through Waismann go through detoxification and we go through Domus or they get started out with that and Amity, you see people at all stages of different problems they’re going through. Um, when we get into saying, I’m, I’m moving into this health and happiness stage and there’s a certain amount of trying to maintain success. And we talk about relapse prevention and things like that, trying not to backslide or trying to deal with this moving forward. Um, I’m interested in some thoughts from everybody about how do we keep that momentum or how do we deal with the fluctuation in momentum as we’re moving forward with these goals so we don’t lose our progress?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Yeah. Go for it. We usually do rock, paper scissors.

Amity Cooper: Um. So dealing with what life throws at you, I think is, is the challenge we’re always going to. Nothing’s smooth sailing, right? So there’s always going to be fits and stops and course corrections and adjustments along the way. And I think in my experience and from my perspective, when somebody has cleared. And has come through a moment of crisis. There is a reorientation that’s necessary. There is something that you need to what your old paradigm, your old worldview, has now been completely remolded and reconstituted. Reconstructed. And you are creating a new, uh, perspective, a new paradigm to live in. And so those choices become much more important. And I think this is where that slippery slope can happen. I mean, it’s so easy to go back into old habits if you haven’t laid the track for the new ones yet. And so this constant adjustment and reassessment and surrounding yourself with a community of support and, and people who are maybe just a few steps ahead who can relate and provide that extra, um, support to you. Emotional and psychological and community is so needed and so vital. And I think a lot of times in along the recovery journey, you know, a lot of these people can get lost. And it is a precarious place to be. And Clare and David, you can speak more to the to these points, but I find that the more we surround ourselves with other people and with our peers and, and our patient with ourselves, we can usually, you know, inch forward, step by step, day by day, living in the moment.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Yeah. That the end of a successful treatment is creativity. Okay, now that doesn’t just mean, uh, maybe some people learn how to paint. I’m sure I never will. Um. Uh, however. But like you’re saying, it’s like, okay, there’s going to be all these ups and downs in life, and they are, um, and so, uh, maybe you’re lonely, but you, you begin to learn how to reach out. Okay. That’s a creative step in a person’s life. Or maybe you’re, um, struggling with work and you begin to learn how to connect with other people and areas that you haven’t been able to do. And eventually your, your work begins to sort of you get you get job offers and things. So it’s these creative and very practical steps that have to do with sort of a life taking hold. And, and again, it’s, it’s I go back to it, but as you can define the needs and then get creative solutions to them and then tolerate the fears, the anxieties and begin to have some support around that and make sense of it. Like one of the things that I think is, um, um, you know, I, I’m not a big believer that the process here is towards happiness.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Now get I that isn’t to say that I hope I have as much as I can possibly have, and I hope all of you do, and everybody else does, but I think it’s far better and far, um, uh, far stronger place to stand to say that, um, we’re learning how to have an experience of being fully alive, right? So that we can be sad when we’re sad and we know what to do. We can be joyful and laugh with friends when that’s what we feel. And so there’s this expansive sense. And by doing that, we’re no longer in conflict. I’m trying to get to this place internally or I need to be this way. And so now you can actually actually be, which is kind of brings in the whole spiritual part of what that is supposed to be. And now you get the psychology and the spirituality and these other things overlapping, and now you’re talking about sort of a type of wholeness. And, and you, you know, and there’s different ways to get to it. But, but, um, it all creates a fluid, stronger human being.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: It’s interesting how. Yeah, happiness isn’t the measure of health. A level of, like, just just like always being healthy isn’t a measure of mental health. I always tell people that, too. It’s like we don’t always make the healthy decision, but knowing what it is and being able to evaluate ourselves, uh, it’s I think sometimes we allow, as they say, the old expression, right, uh, perfect to become the enemy of good. If you’re familiar, that’s, uh, that old idea that, um, you know, when we think what someone, someone who is healthy looks like this and acts like this, actually, they look and act like an individual. They’re just they’re just have tools and are and are making those efforts and things in their life to be healthy. Yeah.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Yeah.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Claire.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: No, I think it’s all a path of growth. You know, even through struggles, it’s also a growth. Uh, it’s always, you know, it’s also, uh, success. So it’s, uh, being human and, uh, I think, uh, one step backwards does not erase 30 steps forward. So, um, you know, you you continue growing. That’s all it is. That’s life.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: And I think that the way we respond to things, we we learn, especially in addiction, to be terrified of the concept of relapse, we use it, you know, it’s the R word, so to speak. Um, but yet I think when you’re talking about individualized treatment and care, relapse is a, a potential thing that can happen that we learn from and deal with. Um, and also, I find that when you’re working in real individualized care, even the concept or just the word relapse is, is more individually defined. And what does that really mean? Right. And what is a problematic something that happens. And getting into the nuance of that is, is very important. When we do that with people.

Speaker5: We live in a culture that is everything is is, um, up and out. The next thing to do, the next is the next act and what I’ve. What part of my experience has been in in treating addiction is it’s off, especially when people come in for treatment. Okay. Um, I that that addiction itself is a continuation of this need for up and out. Get something, do something right. And what is missing is this need to be able to go down and end. So when they go to treatment, all of a sudden, um, the floor is removed for a while, you know, everything they, they pull and everything is pulled down and in. And by the way, um, that is what, what not always. Okay. Because this is complicated. So I don’t want to over speak, but it’s what the, it’s part of what the healthy function of depression is. Right. So that the depression is supposed to also be like any symptom of balancing act, right? Where it inhibits our desire to go out, you know, up and out, and it pulls us in so that we can begin to reexamine areas that are, um, out of balance. And so you’ll see people go through that after a detox. They will go through a period of, uh, dysphoria, you know, and they’re pulled down and in through the process itself. Now, some of it’s chemicals, some of it is, you know, um, just the physiology of the detox itself. But there’s another element to it that’s that which is what brings them there. They’re no longer seeking only a life up and out. Now that has to get like you you’re talking about that has to get continually reflected upon, because these habits of mind and these habits of living don’t just, uh, just give way easily.

Amity Cooper: I often think of, um, you know, the concept of dark night of the soul and just being it the, the depression or the symptomology of that informs you about what’s happening and it grounds you. You need that, that, that the you need to if you have this experience of hubris, of flying out of your body, which addictions and substance use can can take you there and then you’re suddenly grounded in this experience of feeling, uh, your body. It’s it is a very, uh. It’s a shock to the system and you have to go through it. You have to go in to go through, and that process takes as long as it takes. But learning, relearning and re being able to rewire your system so that you can. Cross through into something new is is a powerful experience and I it it it proves to yourself, you can prove to yourself that you can do hard things that you that you can come through with trials and with tribulations, and you can come out on the other side. I mean, that is, um, that is the gift. That is the gift of life. I see it that way, but wonderful.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Yeah, yeah.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Very well said. Uh, Mike’s all this is something that those of you out there that are able to hear this or watch this, I think that, uh, as I always like to say, you’ve got people in your life who need this. If you wonder if mental health or addiction needs are present in your life, they are. If you’re lucky enough to not be aware of of them at all in yourself. Well, maybe lucky, maybe check. But, uh, if not you, then look around you. There’s somebody who can use that. Um, and, and I’m really grateful for the things we’ve been able to share and talk about today. Amity, would you tell everybody a little bit how they can follow you and follow your work? Where do they find you out there in the world? Not not geographically, just, you know.

Amity Cooper: Yeah, yeah. So first and foremost, you can find me at Amity cooper.com. And that provides sort of an overview of all of the different services and programs that I offer. If you are interested in speaking more with me or learning more about my specific counseling and coaching programs, you can find me at wayfinding practice.com. And then last but not least, if you are a mental health professional seeking information and guidance on how to open and jump start your practice, you can find me at Clinical Career collective.com. I know that is a mouthful, but I offer a, um, a seven day boot camp to help jump start your private practice so you can find me there.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Excellent. Thank. And it’s good to be up on top of those things for sure, as we do move forward, as we’ve talked about today, and find ways to utilize and meet people’s needs in the world that we actually live in now, which is which is important, uh, for all that it has and offers. Um, as far as the show here, you can learn more about Waismann Method and you can learn more about our show by visiting opiates.com. We do want to hear from you. We thrive on questions and answers here. And so send us things that you’d like us to talk about. Uh, we’re very grateful for those that have been reaching out, not just with questions, but also, uh, with some of the suggestions and getting us connected with some of our, our wonderful guests. So email us at info@opiates.com. Uh, in order to do that, this show is a production of Waismann Method Opioid Treatment Specialists and Rapid Detox. Our music is the song Medical by Clean Mind Sounds and for, uh, Clare Waismann David Livingston, I just want to say thank you for everybody, uh, that’s out there listening. Make sure to rate and review our program. Uh, one of the great things you can do to help others is to share this and other information about addiction and mental health recovery with those around you. And I just want to remind you one more time to keep asking questions. Because when you ask questions, you can find answers. And whenever you find answers, you can find hope. Thanks again, everybody, for being here today.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Thank you.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Thank you, thank you. All right. Bye.